While I criticize religion, I also study it. In fact, you ought not criticize something unless you’ve studied it, and I’m not sure any clear thinking person can study religion without criticizing it.
While I am highly critical of religion, I am remarkably unbiased. I’ll pause for the audience to stop laughing…
You may doubt me, but consider this: I have no religious affiliation. I have no need to defend one above any other. Since I have no horse in the race, I have the advantage that comes with being an outside observer. So, when it comes to interfaith ideological conflicts, I feel I have an undeniably unbiased perspective.
Which leads me to a comment made by Ross in which they bluntly claim that Mormons aren’t Christians. When I see that, I just have to wonder what motivates a comment like that.
I see this tactic directed at non-Mormons all the time, and it’s always such a strangely vicious, hostile way of trying to delegitimize a perceived threat among Christian sects. But this is not universal, for some reason. I don’t see Catholics or Protestants saying the Amish aren’t really Christians. I guess the Amish don’t show up on the radar (who would have thought it would be the Amish who develop stealth technology first).
Say what you want about real aspects of Mormonism, but they believe Jesus saves them. Saying Mormons aren’t Christian isn’t a very Christian thing to say.
And trust me, the Book of Mormon has exactly the same amount of authority as the Bible.
"Which leads me to a comment made by Ross in which they bluntly claim that Mormons aren’t Christians. When I see that, I just have to wonder what motivates a comment like that."
ReplyDeleteIt takes nothing more than having studied the LDS religion and it's history. When one does so one finds that it diverges quite radically from what Christians have historically believed. Mormons themselves used to refer to Christians and other non-Mormons as "gentiles". For that matter some still do:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/04/in-defense-of-the-word-gentile/
As much as Mormons may dislike it, the claim that Mormonism isn't Christian seems to me quite reasonable. And I say that as a disinterested outside observer (I'm atheist).
The Mormon view of Jesus is different enough from other Christian sects to make it reasonable to say it not a Christian religion. According to Mormons, anyone can become perfect like a god. As I understand it, this is how Jesus became god of the earth.
ReplyDeleteFrom what seems to be a pro-Mormon website:
"I believe we have the potential to become a god ourselves"
http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Do_We_Have_the_Potential_to_become_Like_God.html
And some Catholics say Protestants aren't Christians, and some Protestants say Catholics aren't Christians, and both often accuse Unitarians of not being Christian...
ReplyDeleteLook, a penguin is a bird, not a fish, even though it swims and doesn't fly. Mormonism is a Christian sect that happened to start in the US. This happens in the other large religion, too, as Islam is full of sects which have additional, uncommon practices or abandon fundamentalist tradition. Is the Nation of Islam not a Muslim sect? Some Muslims say so, but anyone who doesn't have an axe to grind can see quite plainly they are.
And if one more person tells me I don't understand the history of Mormonism, I'm seriously going to smack you in the face with a golden plate.
I think Mr. Elllis is right. Mormon doctrines include ideas which are so alien to those of mainstream Christianity (God having once been human, humans having the capacity to become gods, God living on another planet) that virtually all Christians would reject it as non-Christian if they knew these details. The doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are tiny by comparison, and only a small minority of each of those groups consider the other non-Christian.
ReplyDeleteA shared deity doesn't mean a common religion. Christianity and Islam have the same God ("Allâh" is just the Arabic word for "God", used by Christian Arabs for their God as well as by Muslims) and the Koran has a lot of the same stories as the Old Testament and even recognizes Jesus as a prophet, though not as the son of God. That doesn't make Islam a sect of Christianity, or vice versa. Mormonism is more doctrinally different from Christianity than Islam is.
Alien ideas which aren't in the Bible? Like the Rapture? Original sin? Easter? Santa Claus?
ReplyDeleteAnd point of fact, Muslims do see themselves as a continuation of Christianity and Judaism, just as Christianity considers itself a continuation of Judaism, and all three are Abarahamic religions which are pretty much the same. Muslims see people like Abraham, Moses, and Jesus as Muslims. This is debatable, but given the etymological meaning of "Islam," it's fair to say these people did in fact submit to God (I'm not sure how they feel about Jacob).
You can choose to alienate Mormonism if you want, but there's not much difference between Mormonism and Christianity. There's more difference between what followers of Jesus in the 1st and 2nd centuries practiced and modern Christianity than between modern Catholicism or Protestantism and Mormonism.
Mormonism includes planets because it is a religion that formed after human beings understood astronomy to the point of realizing there are other planets. This is not much different than saying God is in the sky, or that ruling a planet is different from John 14:2, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
Honestly, in a country that thinks addiction is a disease and competitive eating is a sport, I'm shocked at how hard this is to sell to you people.
They have Jesus in their fucking name, they ARE Christian.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me to be akin to the No True Scottsman fallacy.... "They can't be real Christians because they're different than us!"
I like your last sentence there. It does have as much validity as the Bible. Which is to say, None.
At least I'm not alone on this, thanks mac.
ReplyDeleteIt is a "No True Scotsman" argument, indeed. It smacks of times like when Muslims try to disown terrorists. Al Qaeda are Muslims, even though they don't represent most Muslims, just as Mormons are Christian, though they don't represent most Christians. I just have to wonder what Mormons do that is so awful that they would be disavowed as Christians, despite worshipping Jesus Christ.
"I just have to wonder what Mormons do that is so awful that they would be disavowed as Christians, despite worshipping Jesus Christ."
ReplyDeleteNothing. Both religions are ridiculous. They just happen not to be the same religion despite the later one appropriating some of the content of the previous religion. Mormonism did to Christianity exactly what Christianity did to Judaism.
Mormonism didn't add a god (Jesus). The very objects of worship are identical. It is much like Wahhabi Islam and Islam proper; a new "prophet" adding new teachings, but keeping the general framework.
ReplyDeleteThe New Testament and Christian practice are full of cancellations of Jewish doctrines. This may very well be revisionism on the part of those who composed and compiled the Bible (as you are correct, there was a time for centuries where "Christians" were merely messianic Jews), but it was this radical departure from basic tenants that altered the religion and made it new (much as Buddha altered Jainism).
I might consider Mormonism distinct if you can point to nullification doctrines on par with Christianity's rejection of a chosen people, ignoring kashrut law, abandonment of Sabbath rest, decentralization from Jerusalem...
I've just spoken to too many Mormons and read too much about Mormonism to see it as a distinct species of religion. Mormons see themselves in the greater context of Christianity, and like nearly all religions, they see theirs are the true one... but that doesn't make them non-Christian.
"Mormonism didn't add a god (Jesus)."
ReplyDeleteActually, in it's claim that we can all become godss it added a whole host of gods.
"The very objects of worship are identical."
In name only. The theological claims about the nature of Jesus diverge at least as much from Christianity as Christianity's claims about God diverge from Judaism.
"It is much like Wahhabi Islam and Islam proper; a new "prophet" adding new teachings, but keeping the general framework."
As one commenter has already pointed out, Islam actually has more in common, theologically, with Christianity than Mormonism does.
"The New Testament and Christian practice are full of cancellations of Jewish doctrines. This may very well be revisionism on the part of those who composed and compiled the Bible (as you are correct, there was a time for centuries where "Christians" were merely messianic Jews), but it was this radical departure from basic tenants that altered the religion and made it new (much as Buddha altered Jainism)."
That's my point. Mormonism diverges more than enough to be reasonably called a new religion.
"I might consider Mormonism distinct if you can point to nullification doctrines on par with Christianity's rejection of a chosen people, ignoring kashrut law, abandonment of Sabbath rest, decentralization from Jerusalem..."
Examples of the radical nature of the divergence have already been given.
Do you honestly think that the theological difference of believing that God was once a mortal man like us and that we can become Gods and rule our own worlds as he does ours doesn't constitute a radical break with historical Christianity?
"I've just spoken to too many Mormons and read too much about Mormonism to see it as a distinct species of religion. Mormons see themselves in the greater context of Christianity, and like nearly all religions, they see theirs are the true one... but that doesn't make them non-Christian."
Christians see their religion as the culmination and completion of Judaism. They're wrong. Just as the Mormons are about their relationship with an earlier religion.
And that's my final word on what is, ultimately, little more than a semantic debate. I'm more than content to disagree and get on with my life as one who is contentedly non-Christian and non-Mormon.
Well, I'll consider what you said.
ReplyDelete"Do you honestly think that the theological difference of believing that God was once a mortal man like us and that we can become Gods and rule our own worlds as he does ours doesn't constitute a radical break with historical Christianity" ~
ReplyDeleteYes, I do believe the Christian god was a mere mortal at one point. His name was Jesus.
I also know the Catholic Church has "saints". Saints were Humans that were really special. Catholics pray to these saints. That might not seem like a big deal to most. But, why would anyone, religious or not, pray to a dead HUMAN ? It seems these saints become "mini-gods".
Then, there's the issue of angels or what becomes of us when we get to heaven. Do we just sit around listening to harp music 24/7 for eternity? Or perhaps, we just might get a few god-like bennies ourselves?
Of course, all religion is Bullshit !
I thought this was a good post.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Mormonism is an offshoot of Christianity just as Pentecostalism and Seventh Day Adventist are offshoots.
The only difference is in the weird theological implications which arise from even stranger "sacred books" full of bizarre things.
But the belief that Jesus saves, if a core tenet to Christianity, if not the main one--and therefore Mormons are definitely a Christian sect.
The Pentecostals have their weird speaking in tongues thing, all sounding like idiots, and the Catholics will continue to pretend to eat the actual flesh of a 2,000 year old dead Jewish dude, and the Protestants will still have their abstinence policies with regard to sex and heavy metal, and Mormons will continue to sit at home in their "magic" underwear not drinking coffee--and I will still think they're all a little too damn silly to take seriously.
I know the Book of Mormon is a lot of extra stuff, but so is the Catholic Catechism.
ReplyDeleteMy first impulse is also to just shrug and say, "Who cares?" But, from a purely academic standpoint, I find it somethign interesting to think about, like whether atheism is or is not a religion.
"Yes, I do believe the Christian god was a mere mortal at one point. His name was Jesus."
ReplyDeleteThat's standard Christian theology and not the point on which Mormonism diverges so radically from Christianity. Mormonism claims that God the Father started out as a human man and became a god.
Of course, this is just a debate over the usage of words. Anybody can call themselves a Christian if they like and be right in the sense that their usage fits their definition of the term.
When I say a Mormon isn't a Christian I'm not insulting them (given my low opinion of Christianity that would be hard to do). I'm simply saying that I consider them too divergent from historical Christianity to consider it appropriate to call them simply a Christian denomination or sect. They're more than welcome to disagree.
What I don't care for is the frequent implication that those who don't agree with their view that they are a form of Christianity rather than a new religion are bigots.
To me, it's the Christians who claim Mormons aren't Christian for the sole purpose of insulting them who are being vicious (I don't think it's bigotry, unless there is some component of explicit hostility).
ReplyDeleteWhen atheists are discussing the semantics of it, I think it's usually in a completely different spirit than when Christians seek to insult or undermine.
I don't think anyone reading this will think those calling Mormonism its own religion will see it as at attack from atheists on Mormonism, but I could be wrong. Maybe a Mormon will chime in at some point.