When I stop and think about it, there are so many reasons to stop being religious that it’s sad so few do.
I find that how someone becomes an atheist tends to happen one of two ways: either you learn about atheism and find it appealing, or you learn about religion and find it appalling. I personally took the latter route, losing faith well before I ever found atheism. However, I suspect that both paths to atheism are lined with questions.
I found that religion hates when believers ask questions – or at least certain questions. Sure, they like some questions… like those that assume the basic premises of the faith are true. However, if you start asking questions that religion cannot truly answer, you will get a brush-off reply that means nothing, essentially amounting to an appeal to “take it on faith.” I even compiled a list of some responses given by Christians when they don’t know, but would like to appear like they do.
If I had to pin down one question that really shook my faith, it would be: “Where did God come from?” It’s a question for which theologians have many responses, but no answers. Meanwhile, atheism answers this question quite simply and succinctly: our imagination.
But I can’t point to that question and say, “That is why I became an atheist.” It’s not my “proof,” by any means. Rather, it leads to other questions based on the responses given by believers (e.g. if “god” can simply be, why can’t the universe?). Questioning in general exposes the deficiencies in religion, so I can understand why religion discourages curiosity.
And yet, I have found no shortage of religious folks who want to try to answer my questions now that I’m an atheist. When you’re a believer, questioning is evil, but when you’re an atheist, it’s not only expected, it’s almost like any question on my part is an invitation to proselytize.
Many religious people just like to represent their faith, because you are never more sure of your religion as when you’re defending it from the outside. A fellow believer with doubt is disconcerting, but confronting a non-believer is basically an opportunity.
I also notice a very different stance in how what I say now as an atheist is interpreted versus if I said it as a believer.
No believer I ever met since becoming an atheist is open to my ideas, at all. I’m not saying believers ignore me or don’t really listen to me, but they keep me at a distance and don’t take what I say seriously. They see what I say as either a joke or an attack (at least I understand why it might be seen as a bad joke, coming from me). When I was a believer (or when I read blogs and comments between believers), those same concerns are empathized with, and we are reassured, “That’s normal, everyone has those questions and concerns.”
It’s quite a situation, no question about it.
The reason the universe cant just be is the second law of thermodynamics shows it cant be eternal and had to have a beginning now was that a supernatural or natural beginning both are faith positions as no human saw the creation and no reasonable explanation exists to how it can come about by natural undirected forces from nothing.
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian and have no interest in attacking your position but like I say to most non Christians we can look at the evidence calmly and reasonably and at the end of it still disagree , we have free will fortunately.
So if you want to pose a question or state a position I will explain with evidence if I can why I hold the position I hold.
Don't take this as an insult, but do any Newtonian laws explain a talking snake?
DeleteI don`t insult easy I developed a thick skin when growing
Deleteup, as I had 2 imaginary friends and even they both joined forces to called me names.
Talking snakes are pretty unbelievable alright, but here`s one for you , For anything up to a million years after the big bang all there was was hydrogen gas and small amounts of helium, so hydrogen a colourless odourless gas that if left for long enough becomes every living thing we see around us including people.Now you can check the hydrogen info yourself
now talking snakes is mad but no madder than hydrogen gas the simplest gas we now arranging itself overtime into life and all we know of life.
Hydrogen gas formed into stars, which underwent nuclear fusion, a very simple to understand process, and they eventually exploded once their fuel ran out, seeding the universe with heavy elements which were the direct result of the star's natural processes (the force in a star are sufficient for fusing atoms together into new elements). All the non-hydrogen and helium atoms in the universe are created through this process.
DeleteDo you believe in a talking snake, or do you just see that story as metaphorical?
I believe the Serpent spoke, now speaking of belief I am sure you believe that your explanation of hydrogen doing what you say it did but please provide some hard evidence, gas by is nature disperses so where did the gravity come from to stop this highly dispersed cloud of gas which is been forced in one direction in a vacuum by the big bang suddenly stop and form stars.Also please as you are not a man of faith show me the process , the undirected process that gets the complexity of all life including the human brain from hydrogen gas. I only need to believe an existing serpent spoke you need to believe it came from a cloud of hydrogen gas by chance happenings.
DeleteNothing stopped, which is why the universe is still expanding...
DeleteAlso, please stop conflating life and the universe;s accretion. I know that your religion tells you everything happened in 6 days, but it took billions of years, and the processes of star/planet creation are quite separate than biogenesis. You can't just jump between the Big Bang and life, it makes no sense (which I guess is why you want to do so, because it justifies your view that science makes no sense).
We can talk about each for what they are, separate issues, but you can't just lump them together because your religion does (the Big Bang wouldn't even be mentioned in the same book, let alone chapter or paragraph, with the emergence of life).
If you'd like, I can do a post outlining how the universe began. It wouldn't fit in a comment, and it's more complex than "There was a Big Bang and then hydrogen gas." However, I'll point out now that the force you're looking for that caused accretion in matter is gravity, which is a basic property of all baryonic matter. Matter and energy that is unaffected by gravity did not undergo accretion, and therefore did just keep moving endlessly.
Should I do a post on the Big Bang, or are you going to talk about brains and snakes and humans while I try to explain to you how stars and planets formed? Or, would you prefer we talk about biogenesis, aka the emergence of chemically complex life?
Also, if I'm going to do the research necessary for this, I need you to bone up on reptilian anatomy and explain to me how a snake can speak.
DeleteIt's only fair.
where did the gravity come from to stop this highly dispersed cloud of gas which is been forced in one direction in a vacuum by the big bang suddenly stop and form stars.
DeleteAccording to the current models, it was not a uniform cloud of gas, and the hydrogen atoms were not spread out evenly, so they coalesced into isolated nebulas even as they were expanding away from the point of origin. It never 'suddenly stopped'.
But as Bret mentions, that's astrophysics, and to go from there to evolutionary biology you would have to cover encyclopedias worth of different subjects.
If you are curious about evolutionary biology, please read Jerry Coyne's excellent book "Why Evolution Is True". http://www.amazon.com/Why-Evolution-True-Jerry-Coyne/dp/0670020532 You don't have to buy it if you don't want to, but if you can borrow it for free from a public library you should. It explains evolution in a very logical and convincing way. It is not a book that aims to attack religious beliefs, but rather to prove evolution based on its own merit.
When getting from Hydrogen gas to people I just took an over view , to me its just like if someone arrived at ground zero with a truck load of hydrogen and stated they were going to rebuild using only natural process`s and this gas,you might just take an over view of his problems before tackling the step by step difficulties.
DeleteSo ok one point at a time please tell me in detail how stars formed , seeing I have been reading up on this and have heard many nice stories but also honest scientists admit they dont know how stars formed but sure maybe you can enlighten them.
I am amazed at how those who believe a natural explanation for all we see in nature have such problems with virgin births and talking serpents, but still believe the universe and all life made itself by itself from nothing man the thinking and talking primate can arise from a primordial soup and in his head have have the most complex arrange of matter in existence , life can arise from non life,but virgins can`t give birth and snakes cant talk.So are you saying although primates developed speech it was impossible for snakes in the past to do the same?
I have a copy of Coynes WEIT, I am 50 pages in and find it very philosophical not very scientific, but have a look at the mechanic`s of evolutionary change as I would like to discuss that next if thats ok.
As regard my view on virgin birth and talking snakes I believe in Gods supernatural intervention in the past, I know its hard to believe but to my mind easier to believe than nature caused everything
So ok one point at a time please tell me in detail how stars formed , seeing I have been reading up on this and have heard many nice stories but also honest scientists admit they dont know how stars formed but sure maybe you can enlighten them.
DeleteNo astrophysicist lacks a basic understanding of how stars formed. They're always studying it to gain a more specific and accurate model, but it's no mystery that gravity causes gas to coalesce.
I would like you to e-mail me (AnythingButTheist@gmail.com), so we can schedule a time to sit down at the same time and chat. This one-exchange-per-day stuff is frustrating. If you want, I could even post our conversation (with you getting final edit on the transcript). Let me know if you're interested.
In my opinion, if you disregard religious texts simply because you think the stories couldn't have happened, then you totally missed the point. That is the genius of these stories. For your example about the 'talking snake,' I suggest you read Rabbi Joseph Solovetchik's eloquent essay on the subject, free to read over here
ReplyDeletehttp://www.traditiononline.org/news/converted/Volume%207/No.%202/The%20Lonely%20Man.pdf
Also, I feel like the faith that I belong to, Judaism, is very open to questioning faith, and sees it as a natural part of life.
A true piece of art stands on it's own, and needs no defense or elaboration.
DeleteFor me, the torah functions fairly well as a look into human psychology, and it also has some redeeming historical value to it. I'm not saying these works are worthless, they just are clear evidence for the lack of divine inspiration. Their own inadequacies are damning.
Interesting idea, but that is not always true. Picasso, now thought of as perhaps the greatest artist of the 20th century, had many critics who thought his painting style was terrible.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I would appreciate if you could tell me what clear evidence there is for the Torah's lack of divine inspiration. I think its unfair to say that it is definite either way.
Are your proofs historical in nature, scientific, or otherwise? If your proof is the Wellhausen theory and his school of higher criticism, don't spend the time to reply. Also, you did not respond to my comment about Judaism.
You have an interesting perspective, being married to AE, and I was wondering if you had any opinions about Judaism and its approach to asking questions based on what she has taught you. And finally, who gives a damn if the bible is not divinely inspired?? Does that make it worth less to you? Perhaps that makes it greater, as it is written by humans like us, struggling in their own spiritual journeys to find what's out there/
DeleteAlso, I would appreciate if you could tell me what clear evidence there is for the Torah's lack of divine inspiration. I think its unfair to say that it is definite either way.
Are your proofs historical in nature, scientific, or otherwise? If your proof is the Wellhausen theory and his school of higher criticism, don't spend the time to reply. Also, you did not respond to my comment about Judaism.
It's definitely not inspired by God. If it is inspired by God, I'm not impressed. I think the Norse and Greek gods told a much better story (though all of them were rather careless with the contradictions they included). I don't even know who Wellhausen is (and I don't think I'll even Google it later). My proof is in the reading itself.
I was wondering if you had any opinions about Judaism and its approach to asking questions based on what she has taught you.
I just talked to her about it, and she agrees that Judaism is fine with questioning... if you assume the basic authority of the Torah. It's not really encouraging true debate if you are beholden to writings that are thousands of years old.
Judaism needs a fresh start; it's stale and is basically a perversion of itself at this point. Many Jews are borderline Amish, unable to live a normal life in society. That's not a good thing.
And finally, who gives a damn if the bible is not divinely inspired?? Does that make it worth less to you? Perhaps that makes it greater, as it is written by humans like us, struggling in their own spiritual journeys to find what's out there?
As an atheist, I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think certain religious people would agree with you, but who cares what they think? We both know human beings are capable of writing a work so enduring that it stands the tests of time and persecution. The Bible is essentially a priceless document.
what clear evidence there is for the Torah's lack of divine inspiration
ReplyDeleteYou mean other than the fact that no deities are known to science?
If someone wrote a book about unicorns, what clear evidence would you have that it was not unicornly inspired?
If we are to accept the existence of a deity, perhaps the proponents of that claim should come forward with clear evidence that such a deity is real.
To even think about proving that a given book was inspired by a genuine (not imagined) deity, evidence of the existence of that deity must be provided first. The book will never be evidence of the existence of the deity that allegedly inspired it anymore that the Harry Potter book series was inspired by a genuine Hogwart's student.
The burden of proof lies clearly upon the believers, not upon the skeptics.
Don't you see? It's better to distract from your ridiculous myth by feigning skepticism for science. Put science on trial, and suddenly talking snakes don't need to be explained.
DeleteHow presumptuous of you to assume that I am a skeptic of science. I personally think that science is a great way to understand and appreciate the world we live in. However, science can only use material/natural research and evidence to offer material/natural solutions.
ReplyDeleteThus, science cannot prove or disprove the existence of something "divine" either way. Even Richard Dawkins, a very famous and noted atheist, has conceded this point.
Also, I am not calling atheism ridiculous. Don't call my beliefs ridiculous either. Mutual respect is always the best policy.
I respect your right to believe whatever you like, but that's the closest I can bring myself to "respecting" religion.
DeleteReligion really is a joke... if you could step back from it for even a second, you'd see it, plain as day.
That's too bad. If only everyone was a little more tolerant, the world would be a much better place. Also, you have not told me why religion is such a joke, except for saying those words.
ReplyDeleteYou were unaware that the main opposition to the bible lies in higher criticism and its historical authenticity. I would love to know what you think, instead of the rhetoric that you spout.
I see religion as a way to be a moral human being who can work to change the world for the better, under the framework of being ethical, fair, merciful... etc. What are your problems with that?
Also, I am a religious Jew. I was raised in a similar household as your wife was (I read her blog too). I don't understand why you cannot respect my beliefs. I completely respect yours, and I even want to learn more about why you believe what you believe! Why can't you do that as well? Not all religious people are ignorant, hateful of science, and against questioning.
I am here to prove that. Re-read my responses and maybe find it in your heart to be a little less condescending and rude. After all, atheists can still behave morally, right? Of course they can.
That's too bad. If only everyone was a little more tolerant, the world would be a much better place.
DeleteI do tolerate the religious, I just think their views are a joke. Tolerance doesn't mean I have to pretend their nonsense is correct.
Also, you have not told me why religion is such a joke, except for saying those words.
It's adults believing the world began in a garden with a talking snake... if that doesn't make you laugh, I don't know what's wrong with you. I'm sorry you don't get the jokes, but they're on every page. Look on the bright side: I don't think religion is evil.
You were unaware that the main opposition to the bible lies in higher criticism and its historical authenticity.
Of course I'm aware of there being historical inaccuracies, I just didn't know one guy's work. I'm not sure how you can say it's the "main opposition," because the Torah stands on its own as being internally flawed enough to not be worth taking seriously.
I would love to know what you think, instead of the rhetoric that you spout.
I think the Torah is one of the most racist, misogynistic, and ignorant aggrandizements of violence I have ever read in my life. That is what I think. I think people who hold it dear are too often miserable people who treat non-Jews with disgust and fellow Jews with judgmental scrutiny. It's a shame that people continue such blatant stupidity. That is what I think.
I see religion as a way to be a moral human being who can work to change the world for the better, under the framework of being ethical, fair, merciful... etc. What are your problems with that?
I look at religion, and just about the last words to come to mind are "ethical, fair, merciful." How you cull those qualities out of religion is the closest thing to a miracle I have ever seen.
Also, I am a religious Jew. I was raised in a similar household as your wife was (I read her blog too). I don't understand why you cannot respect my beliefs. I completely respect yours, and I even want to learn more about why you believe what you believe! Why can't you do that as well? Not all religious people are ignorant, hateful of science, and against questioning.
If you live the way my wife was forced to live, I can honestly say you have mental health issues. I have watched my wife struggle through shrugging off so many of these strange, OCD-like conditions. I had to buy paper plates and plastic cutlery for my in-laws, who couldn't eat off my perfectly clean plates and silverware. It's like a disease. I grew up near Amish people who were less insane.
I'm not surprised you respect my way of living... because I just live. Your way of living is barely living at all, it's like a strictly enforced communal mental disorder, and it serves only to separate you from others so you won't be exposed to the views of others (which almost makes your attempt here the second mear0miracle today).
People who live like my wife was raised do not have real contact with differently minded people. It's a closed-off subculture, and it's not something I will ever respect. You're free to live like that, but I'm just as free to point at you and laugh at how crazy I think you're acting.
I am here to prove that. Re-read my responses and maybe find it in your heart to be a little less condescending and rude. After all, atheists can still behave morally, right? Of course they can.
Maybe it is rude to say religion is a joke, but it's "moral." I'm being perfectly honest.
Don't think I'm being condescending. I'm not looking down on you, I'm just looking over at you and laughing. If I lived near you, I'd be happy to be your Shabbas goy. I can coexist with you, I would even make concessions for you, but that doesn't make religion any less nutty.
Good day to you then. I don't appreciate being told that I have mental health issues from someone I don't know. If you can honestly diagnose someone you have never met, then maybe you yourself are developmentally delayed. You also make broad and stereotypical conjectures.
ReplyDeleteThe community I live in does not ask non-Jews to perform acts we do not perform on the sabbath, per your rude "shabbos goy" comment.
So much of what you say is wrong. I am not forced by anyone to live the life I live. Religion is a choice, not a must. That's why Jews don't proselytize.
'Your way of living is barely living at all, it's like a strictly enforced communal mental disorder.' How offensive! You criticize the religious community for hating atheists, and then you spit out the same garbage that they spit on you.
Shame on you, for being so rude to me, when all I wanted was to engage in a friendly conversation and get to know your opinions better.
And then that last bit about how you're not trying to be condescending? Give me a break. You said yourself more then once that I have a mental disorder. How is that not being condescending? Cut the crap.
Just admit that I, a religious person, am more open to your views then you are to mine. Sit with that realization, and become a more open person. You don't need to believe that God exists, or that morality is important, but at least don't throw around insulting names.
By the way, have you even read the Torah? You keep quoting the famous story of the Garden of Eden, without mentioning any examples of anything else. Things like the holiness code in Leviticus, the ten commandments, or the verse that is cited as the most important of all verses in the bible, "Love your neighbor as yourself." What do you think of these verses?
In closing, I hope you will realize that you have made a religious person who was once open and excited about the opportunity of dialogue disturbed that this is all atheists have to offer, due to your unhelpful and rude answers. Thanks for nothing.
Of course I'm not being condescending, how could I look down on someone way up on their high horse?
DeleteI don't want someone who paints themselves as a victim to be an atheist. I hope you stay religious, we don't want you.
You want to know what's insulting? Your ideology, which condemns me and rewards you by virtue of your race. What's more, where you want me to change, I'm perfectly happy with you going on being ignorant.
Stay dumb, my friend. I tolerate you, but I'll never respect your idiotic religion.
You totally ignored pretty much everything that i said. In a nutshell, I said that we are both human beings, and we both deserve respect, regardless of beliefs. Thus, don't call me mentally unstable.
DeleteAlso, you clearly did not comprehend what I wrote to you. I said very clearly that I want to learn more about what you think. Your response is 'stay dumb, my friend.'
I was pretty open, and I truly had a desire to learn more about atheism and what you believe. Don't tell me what I think. I don't tell you.
That said, don't make blanket statements about 'my ideology' and 'your ideology.' Simply stated, you don't know what I believe, so don't make stupid guesses, like you did.
I am not dumb. On the contrary, I have been open and willing to have a friendly dialogue with you. Why is that so hard for you to do? You are a lot older then me, and have had more education, but you are as small-minded and immature as a 5 year old. You call my beliefs idiotic, you say I'm stupid, you tell me that I live in a community that is filthy... Immature, classless behavior. I'm shocked that you would stoop that low. I didn't.
That said, don't make blanket statements about 'my ideology' and 'your ideology.' Simply stated, you don't know what I believe, so don't make stupid guesses, like you did.
DeleteYou said you grew up like my wife. Perhaps you don't know how she was raised? Even she thinks they're crazy (and truthfully, they are).
I'm still laughing that you got offended by me saying I would be your Shabbas goy. Do you have no problem using light switches on Saturday, or are you offended at the idea of asking someone not Jewish to help you out? You're right, I don't know you, and I don't even know which end of the spectrum form her you're coming from.
There's no use acting offended around me. You can't guilt me or shame me into taking your religion seriously. I feel no guilt or shame in saying religion is dumb. I don't feel bad because you feel bad, I find it hilarious that you are so butthurt. I'm not trying to offend you, but it is funny watching you get offended.
If I wanted to offend you, I'd start making Jewish jokes.
I'm just trying to have an open and honest conversation: I find Judaism to be dumb and people who take it seriously have a screw loose upstairs. I do not and will never respect your religion, but I do respect that you should be free to believe and act how you want. Is that not enough?
Why do you want the approval of some jerk with the maturity of a 5 year old? I'll tell you what never gets respect: acting like a victim. I know your religion teaches you that, but it's lame and contemptible. If you're emotionally weak, you should fuck off right now. If you aren't a delicate little flower and don't mind talking like you have a spine, I'm happy to read whatever you have to say.
Alright man, now we're starting to get somewhere. First of all, I love Jewish jokes. I have a particularly good one I heard last night that I could share. Also, I sort of exxagerated my sense of 'being a victim' just to see if you could see that you were being rude. Whatever.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I really don't know how your wife was raised, but she was probably raised in a much more religious environment then I am. I was raised, and still practice, a form of judaism known as 'open orthodoxy.' Google it. It will reshape all of your previous conceptions and ideas regarding religious judaism.
I was sort of offended by your shabbos (with an o) goy comment because it was based on a stereotype. In the same vein, I wouldn't joke to an asian about asians being bad at driving.
And don't bring in any of that 'emotionally weak' shit, man. I'm here to debate the issues, not get a freakin diagnosis. I would love to know why you believe Judaism is dumb. Let's start from there.
By the way, how do you respond to my comments so fast?
In the same vein, I wouldn't joke to an asian about asians being bad at driving.
DeleteI assume how I could help an Asian person wouldn't be to drive them somewhere, but to reach something up high, but I would do either if asked and they needed my help... so long as they help me do math.
By the way, how do you respond to my comments so fast?
I get an e-mail when anyone comments on my bog, which causes a pop-up in the bottom corner of my screen. If I'm at my computer when someone leaves a comment, I see it instantly. Sometimes I'm not at the computer, but not often.
I would love to know why you believe Judaism is dumb. Let's start from there.
I'm already 0/? when it comes to guessing what you even believe, so why don't you tell me what you believe. Do you not eat bacon, and if not, do you really think your God cares whether you eat pork products? Do you wear a kippa if you're a man or a wig if you're a woman? Are you a man or a woman? Do you disown children who marry non-Jews? Give me something true to work with if you're so offended by my ignorance of your personal brand?
I would Google what you asked, and I still will if you insist, but let's be honest... I'm just going to find things you dodge again. Tell me something you think I might find ridiculous (I'm sure you won't have to think very hard about it).
Ok, here it goes. I am a man, I am not married. i do not wear a kippa in public, but do when I attend a religious service. I would never tell my wife to wear a wig. I would not disown a child who did that, although I would definitely ask them why they wanted to marry outside the fold. I keep kosher,
ReplyDeleteI love Jewish culture, American history, politics, languages, and learning religious texts of all religions (I read the Koran and the New Testament). I believe that all people are equal and have a right to freedom and happiness. I believe in a God, however my conceptualization of God differs from traditionalists. I want there to be openness and respect within the religious Jewish community, while not straying from what is right. I believe in the power of humanity to do good, and to be ethical. I strive to do make myself and my community a better place.
That being said, I am sure I could tell you a lot of things that you would find ridiculous. I do not eat pork, but not because I think God will strike me if I will. I live with contradictions, no, I relish contradictions. A favorite quote of mine is, I think, therefore I am. I like vanilla ice cream? How about you, Mr. Alan? And also, please do google open orthodoxy, it will open (no pun intended) a new world regarding your beliefs about religious jews. Thanks.
Why do you care at all if your child marries a non-Jew?
DeleteI don't usually share stuff about myself directly, because I assume people don't care, but I'd be happy to match you point for point, since you asked.
ReplyDeleteI'm also a male (I don't know if I'm a "man," certainly not in the cowboy sense, but I do have a penis and both my testicles). I am married, and I have no idea how I tricked her into it. I don't attend religious services, but I do blog religiously... though not always about religion. I might tell my wife to wear a wig, but it would have to be one awful haircut. I also wouldn't disown a child for marrying a particular person of any kind, and the only thing that would cause me to question my child's decision would be if they were too young (I think it's a bit creepy to get married before 22). I not only don't keep kosher, I have been the cause of some Jews trying bacon for the first time, and I also got a vegetarian I was dating to try meat.
I don't know if I like Jewish culture that much... the foood is a bit bland for the most part, but I do like kreplach. Jewish comedians are good, though. I also like history, be it American or otherwise (I'm still very new to Far Eastern history, but I'm learning as fast as my little mind can). I also read a lot of religious texts, which sort of goes hand-in-hand with the study of history. I read the Koran for the first time last year, and I've read the Bible something like 8 or 9 times now, mostly different translations. Also, the Book of Mormon (awful), Dianetics (mostly awful, but not Book of Mormon awful), collections of mythologies for the Norse, Slavs, Finns, Shinto/Japanese, Aztecs (and I guess by extension, a little of the Mayans), the Plains Indians (which got me into Joseph Campbell), Chinese folklore, the Hadith... I'm probably missing some more. Oh right, Greek/Roman stuff, especially Homer and Virgil, though I also love the short play "Prometheus Bound."
I guess learning all that stuff makes me see they are all equal... equally nuts. This isn't to say there is no wisdom in religion, but it's definitely like searching for a gem in a sewer at times. I don't know about the goodness of people... I'm pretty sure the default for human beings is not goodness. We're not evil, either, we're just born ignorant and we often act selfishly, so we do a lot of horrible things without even realizing what we've done. I don't consider myself part of the atheist community. I consider my community to be humanity, since we're all in this together, whether we like it or not.
I guess by virtue of liking comedy, I also live for contradictions... though I enjoy finding them so I may laugh at them. Humor often relies on exposing a contradiction, so I have become very attuned to noticing them. I certainly contradict myself, as well, and I see it, but to be fair, I laugh at myself all the time. Sure, it garners funny looks in the super market, but of course I'm going to laugh as I reach for "Low Fat" salad dressing when I have a package of cookies in my cart... as if the dressing is going to matter after I eat 10 cookies in a row later that night.
I also like the old "cogito ergo sum." I expanded it to meet my needs: cogito ergo sum atheos, or "I think, therefore I am an atheist." I also like vanilla ice cream, though my favorite is mint chocolate chip... well, that's not true, my favorite is a Mayan chocolate flavor that is discontinued by Haagen Dazs that was dark chocolate and cinnamon, and I also love Dublin Mudslide from Ben and Jerry's... but if I'm just picking normal flavors at any old ice cream shop, I go with mint chocolate chip.
Good man. mint chip would definitely be a close second on my list. Never heard of the Mayan chocolate flavor.
ReplyDeleteIn response to your comments about the equality of religions, I've gotta say, after reading many anthologies of myths and several holy texts, the bible definitely seems to be the most reasonable book. I'm not saying that Judeo-Christians are better people, God forbid (hehe), but our holy text seems to be a little above Norse myths and Assyrian legends, for example. Consider this:
In a famous Babylonian myth, the Gods destroy the world because the people are being too noisy! In the Genesis flood story, God destroys the world because people are unethical and murderous. I'll take being ethical or being quiet any day. Yes, I am sure we can agree on the Bible's many flaws, however I would take it any day over a shallow tale like the Babylonian one.
It's also nice to see that you've read a little history. It can't do anyone any harm. I disagree with you about Jewish culture. The food is legit, I mean who doesn't love a good kugel, kreplach, or hamentashen? Good stuff. Jewish comedy has been a hit in America, yes, and that should be acknowledged more.
I don't understand how you enjoy bacon. I've had the fake stuff and it tastes like a wet eraser mixed into horse shit. And, I'm vegetarian, but that's for ethical reasons.
I would care if my child married a gentile because I personally believe that Judaism deserves to survive. We as a people have been through so much, and to die out due to intermarriage rather than mass-murder or Nazis would be very ironic. And sad. The loss of a people that have definitely left a mark.
In closing, I disagree with your 'reinvention' of the good old "cogito ergo sum." It's terribly arrogant. Are you saying anyone who isn't atheist can't think? Many religious people can't, but that does not include all. I can definitely think, and I believe in God. If I couldn't think, then I would not have explored religion and even read your blog! Descartes must be rolling in his grave, after all, he was a devout Catholic. Thanks also for the amusing tidbit regarding your healthy food choices.
the bible definitely seems to be the most reasonable book
ReplyDeleteI disagree, especially regarding the Norse. Any polytheism is better equipped to explain how the world works, and the ethics behind many religions far exceeds that of the Judeo-Christian ethic. Buddhism alone blows it away, but even Norse mythology (which is a sort of historically late interpretation of traditional Germanic religions) is not only more similar and relevant for someone living in America, but also links to customs that played a greater role on the culture of the English-speaking world than Judaism and Christianity. You don't have Christmas or Easter celebrations as we know them today without these Germanic religions, for instance.
And that's not to mention the linguistic influence (I mean... the very word "God" is derived from the Germanic "Gott," which links to earlier attestations of Gottan/Guthan/Wotan, which is linked to Odin).
I am not impressed by the Jewish flood story blaming the wickedness of mankind. The Bible is a one-trick pony. Everything is blamed on how horrible people are. Oh, something bad happened to people and the Jews blamed it on evil acts among the people... name one story where that isn't the case? Oh right, Job, where God torments a man to win a bet.
What's more, this isn't a unique stance. Zeus flooded the world because he saw mankind as wicked, but one couple was spared. The Aztecs believe Tlaloc flooded the world because the people had become evil and stopped worshiping, but he spared one couple.
Yes, I am sure we can agree on the Bible's many flaws, however I would take it any day over a shallow tale like the Babylonian one.
You call the Babylonian tale shallow but you hold the Garden of Eden tale of eating forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil to be... what? Amazing? Not that bad? Maybe a little embarrassing?
I don't understand how you enjoy bacon. I've had the fake stuff and it tastes like a wet eraser mixed into horse shit.
Right... that's like saying you hate rock music because you heard Weird Al Yankivic one time. Come on... you can't knock bacon when you have only tasted imitations.
I would care if my child married a gentile because I personally believe that Judaism deserves to survive.
I grew up in Indiana with KKK members who felt that way about white people. I found it racist then, and I find it racist now.
We as a people have been through so much, and to die out due to intermarriage rather than mass-murder or Nazis would be very ironic.
Why on Earth would you encourage inbreeding? Viva la Tay-Sachs?
Do you even understand what "die out" means?
Are you saying anyone who isn't atheist can't think?
No. Not only do I not know how to say that in Latin, that isn't what I said in English. Not only does everyone think, I was talking about myself. "I think, therefore I am atheist." Of course you think, you just can't read very well. I don't know what the problem is with all other non-atheists.
I know you're capable of reading, but something between your eyes and your fingers is distorting everything to make it seem like you're a victim. I'm guessing it's your religion.