If I see one more stupid post by an atheist [who I actually read... as opposed to nobodies posting links in my comments] about how sexism is rampant in the atheist community, I am out. I want nothing to do with this bullshit culture of victimhood being cultivated by certain oversensitive know-nothings who just want to complain about something, anything. I’ve also noticed it’s not even primarily women doing this; it’s men, which leads me to believe the guys are only doing this to impress women (I can only assume to sleep with them, a truly noble feminist cause…).
Clearly it’s atheists out in society trying to take away a woman’s right to contraception and abortion. It’s atheists who raise women to be ashamed of their sexuality. It’s atheists who view women as second class citizens. Yeah, atheism is the problem…
Shut the fuck up already. The enemy is out there.
"If I see one more stupid post by an atheist about how sexism is rampant in the atheist community, I am out."
ReplyDeleteIs it really that easy to get rid of you?
http://andythenerd.tumblr.com/post/18495576176/ironically-sexist-post-lacks-self-awareness
Would you like me to act sexist, so you actually know what it looks like?
DeleteEven Bret Alan is attacked by these absurd, polically correct, intellectualy dishonest fools!
DeleteAtheism is simply non-belief in the absurd gods mankind (opps, sexist word there, sorry "genderfaggot") has invented, nothing more. I may have nothing in common with any atheist beyond that.
I wouldn't say "attacked." That implies I feel any sort of aggression is being directed at me. I don't see any aggression here, just a lack of reading comprehension.
DeleteSo...I would have to conclude from your comments that after The American Civil War and the slaves were free and the black males had the right to vote that all the complaining of abuse and neglect was just, "bullshit culture of victimhood being cultivated by certain oversensitive know-nothings who just want to complain about something, anything."
DeleteAm I following your logic correctly?
I guess this also apply to Native Americans and homosexuals as well.
It is refreshing to know that American has worked out all its human rights issues and everyone is just living high on the hog like happy lambs.
The atheist community as a whole is fighting the largest misogynistic organizations in the world. I am sick and tired of atheism being labelled by a few ignorant, gender-obsessed individuals as "sexist," when atheism as a whole is anything but.
DeleteIt's always an individual, not "atheism" which is to blame, and yet all I see coming from people who want to paint atheism as "sexist" is how the community is the problem.
It's tiresome, it's baseless propaganda, and I'm not going to pretend atheists are anything but less sexist than the average person anymore.
"I'm not going to pretend atheists are anything but less sexist than the average person anymore."
DeleteNobody is asking anything more. However, society is still deeply sexist. So that's a pretty low bar to set for this community.
Women in the skeptics/atheist community expect better than what the 'average' person thinks/tolerates. Imagine that.
"Would you like me to act sexist, so you actually know what it looks like?"
DeleteYou're doing it now.
Then you don't know what "sexism" means.
DeleteHere, let me help:
Deletesexism:
1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.
Many people use the terms 'sexism' and 'misogyny' interchangeably. When you tell people who complain about the many, many sexists in the movement to "shut the fuck up", you are being a misogynist. You are telling feminists that their concerns don't matter.
DeleteGuess what, having slightly fewer sexists than the average population isn't good enough.
Guess what, sexism isn't rampant, it's only there when you go looking for it. If you just go about your day, sexism in the atheist community isn't some pillar of atheism, nor does it have anything to do with atheism itself.
DeleteBlame the individuals, not the group.
It's right there, in your OP. So ok, I blame you.
DeleteBy using comments like "culture of victimhood" you show your ass. Same with "shut the fuck up".
People notice when leaders like Dawkins act like pigs. People have a problem with it when other atheists don't seem to care. And your response is to tell anyone who does care to "shut the fuck up".
You can "blame" me for my words, because I said them, but I have nothing to do with an individual on Reddit or some other site saying something. Call out that person, not atheists. Chide them, not all atheists.
DeleteAnd I am an ass. I'm proud to be one.
I'm very unfamiliar with Dawkins, but I don't understand the "act like pigs" remark. If it's regarding his comments on Elevatorgate, you're hilariously over-reacting.
Correction: You are an ignorant ass. Who is chiding "all atheists"? You fail at logic, you know that, right?
DeleteYou're sitting here telling people who actually do care about fighting sexism and misogyny to shut the fuck up about issues you aren't even aware of.
Here's a suggestion: If you don't know what the hell you're even talking about, perhaps it's best not to pretend you do.
Well done making an ass of yourself, though. Quite an entertaining spectacle, indeed.
You think I'm not aware of the existence of sexist atheists?
Delete"If I see one more stupid post by an atheist about how sexism is rampant in the atheist community, I am out."
ReplyDeleteSexism is rampant in the atheist community. Here are some examples from women in the community. http://www.reddit.com/r/GodlessWomen/comments/pz6ix/specific_examples_of_sexism_in_ratheism_or_your/
Cool, see you! Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!
If it's so bad, go back to church.
DeleteAmen, Brother!
DeleteYou're the one complaining about them damn women having voices, not me. You sound like you'd fit in better at church than I would-- I'm not the one trying to silence women.
DeleteI don't know why you see it as either or. Like if we talk about sexism in the movement we CAN'T focus on other issues. I don't know about you, but I'm capable of caring about more than one issue at a time.
Sorry to disrupt your "old boys club." Just kidding.
You did not read my post, which is sad... because it's very short.
DeleteAwesome. Keep your eye on morethanmen.org so we can get rid of your retrograde ass-bag ideas post haste.
ReplyDeleteIronic sexist post is ironic and sexist.
ReplyDelete"Women's causes aren't important enough on their for men to actually care unless they're getting sex out of the deal - BUT SEXISM IS TOTALLY DEAD U GUISE"
FTFY.
on their own*
Deletecare about*
I accidentally some words there.
I would feel insulted, but your lack of syntax makes me wonder if perhaps you have some sort of mental disorder. I don't think it's fair to make fun of you for that... so...
DeleteGood luck with that.
"Instead of addressing your points in an intelligent manner, I will attack your technical mistakes (which you corrected) with a passive-aggressive, ableist comment."
DeleteFTFY. I'm sure ableism doesn't exist, either. OH WAIT.
I couldn't even make out what you were trying to say when I posted my comment. All I got was:
Delete"Blah blah blah sexist, blah blah blah ironic, blah blah blah men..."
Don't take offense just because I speak English. Unlike some of the people commenting here, I can't pretend to read your mind and know what you actually meant. I have to go by what you actually wrote.
Thanks for being purposely obtuse. I corrected myself because I am a strange creature in that I'm okay with making mistakes (especially pre-coffee in the morning).
DeleteYou're not just a sexist, you're a dense asshole, too! Oh wait, no. You just told someone that you're a feminist, that makes everything okay! Kind of like when you know a black guy or start your sentences with "I'm not racist, but..."
I'll state this again for you:
"MEN DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS AS WOMEN UNLESS YOU FUCK THEM, BUT SEXISM IS TOTALLY NOT A PROBLEM."
That is what you said.
I'm obtuse? What an acute little rejoinder.
DeleteI made the comment before I saw your correction. That's the truth.
And no, I'm not "a sexist." I am an asshole, and maybe I have gotten a little dense around the middle in my later years... but I'm not "a sexist."
What makes me not "a sexist" has less to do with the label of feminism and more to do with my overall outlook, namely that of seeing men and women as equals. You can pretend to know what I think and believe, but you do not.
I didn't say "sexism is not a problem." Sexism is a problem. What isn't a problem is the claim that atheism is sexist. Atheism is not sexist, atheism has nothing to do with sexism, and very few atheists are sexist. To claim atheism has a "sexism" problem is to ignore the fact that atheism combats the primary institutions that defend sexism and misogyny, namely that of religion.
Thanks for stopping by.
Please provide a cite for the claim where anyone at all said that "atheism is sexist".
DeleteDuring the Rebecca Watson incident, I saw that kind of thing everywhere.
DeleteI think it'd be more accurate if people claimed Reddit is full of sexist people.
Nice job covering your ass there re: Reddit.
DeleteHowever the fact is that there is little to no chance that anyone ever said that "atheism is sexist" because that's a patently idiotic thing to say.
Retire the strawman arguments and deal with the actual issue. There is a problem with misogyny in society at large, as well as every community within society (even feminism (hello third-wavers!)), and calling it out is important, so kindly take your STFU and shove it.
I gave you the opportunity to say whatever you want here. Am I stifling you? Am I silencing opposition opinions?
DeleteAnd there's not a thing wrong with third-wave feminists. You're academically ignorant if you fail to grasp what they had to say.
I think you're confusing the issues. I don't see anywhere where people are saying "atheism is sexist," more frequently the complaint is made that the atheist community has issues with sexism, which you are quite blatantly denying.
DeleteThe fact that the atheist community is battling an institution that routinely makes sexism okay is NOT a get-out-of-sexism-free card. It is essentially the same as saying "it's okay, I have a black friend" or "It's okay, my best friend is gay."
You telling people with legitimate complaints to 'shut the fuck up' and claiming that men don't give a shit about feminism unless they're getting sex out of it is SEXIST. I'm sure you try to be a decent human being on a regular basis and I can say with certainty that you're probably not the worst person ever, but you can still say sexist things whether or not you like it or intend to. Instead of doubling down, maybe it's time to reconsider.
I'm telling people to stop trying to shame atheists into being brow-beaten. It's making some people deny sexism exists at all in the atheist community.
DeleteI'm fine with acknowledging there are sexist atheists, but the degree to which I see complaints being discussed on a constant basis on some blogs has me doubting it myself. That isn't good.
Name names, give examples, and end the "atheism has sexism issues" vague bullshit.
Hi. Your aggressive and demeaning stance don't really help anybody. There is actually a lot of sexism (as well as racism) in otherwise "progressive" circles like the atheist "community". You can't tell, because you are unaffected. (Just like how white people really can't say jack shit about racism.) Sometimes it's best just to show some (intellectual) humility and understand you can't reason your way into experiential understanding, no matter how reasonable as you are. Also, realize that not everything is about you and it's not always necessary to have the last word. Intellectual humility & not always needing to have the last word. Try those two things, if only as an experiment. If a ton of women tell you there is sexism somewhere, don't be a dick and deny it just because you can't tell it's there.
ReplyDeleteYou just followed some link here. You don't know me, you don't know anything about me, you haven't read anything I ever wrote besides this. You have no idea what you are talking about.
DeleteIf you knew the first thing about the problem I'm trying to address, you'd know that:
1) I am a feminist
2) I'm not denying the existence of atheists who are sexist
3) It is ignorant to paint an entire group based on the actions of some individuals
When people have a problem with what someone says, they should comment on them, not the group as a whole. That's sort of the entire idea behind movements like feminism: not attributing the actions of a few onto the whole.
If you found my post aggressive, I don't know what's wrong with you, perhaps anemia.
It also helps if you don't go throwing around gender-loaded insults like "dick" when you're trying to pretend to have moral superiority over someone.
http://hoydenabouttown.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/look-kitten-plain.jpg
DeleteYou're criticizing me for using language like "kitten" or telling "atheist ladies and defer to the man," when I don't use that language...
DeleteBut hey, it would almost require you to actually read and address what I actually said if you can't just put words in my mouth.
If you can't criticize what I write, you can always criticize what you think I'm thinking, eh? Brilliant.
Look, Kitten, I Am Too A Feminist - Fauxminism and Men http://www.lawsonry.com/2011/891.html
DeleteThat's how you encourage feminism among men, by telling them they can't be real feminists?
DeleteNo, but pointing out how some behaviors aren't actually feminists helps fauxminists to see the ways in which they are doing it wrong.
DeleteAlso, just have a look around the net. Google a few key terms (e.g. sexism + misogyny + atheist + community) and read some of the opinions of people who don't agree with you.
It's good that more and more people are calling out sexism when they see it. Socially we know and understand that racist and homophobic comments are wrong (well, most of us do), but sexism is still socially acceptable (and therefore invisible to most people, not just men but women too).
Perhaps you might consider not being so reactionary and defensive, and looking at this issue on the macro level. Instead of trying to make it about individuals, acknowledge the reality that society is still very sexist. Atheists may be composed of more or fewer sexists, but your whining about it being pointed out is simply a form of denial. It's a fact, and people aren't going to stop talking about it just because you say you'll be 'out' if they don't.
I have been blogging about atheism for years. In fact, if you stopped and thought for even one second about it... the entire point of my post is related to the fact that I am acquainted with the "problem" of sexism is atheism, as stated by certain people.
DeleteI cannot believe you are lecturing me on being "defensive" when I have a small cadre of bitter people getting defensive about my post. And the macro level? The macro level of atheism is one of feminism, where the few sexists are marginalized and not mainstream. Sexist atheists are a minority, and somehow their actions reflect on the whole... though I'm not sure how, since nothing in atheism proper has anything to do with gender equality, one way or the other.
If it makes you happy, I'm more than capable of saying:
Society is sexist, and there are many sexist atheists.
That has nothing to do with a "sexism problem" in the atheist community, and I'm sick of being associated with that claim.
People DO need to stop talking about the "problem" as if it's inherent in atheism and just acknowledge, "Hey, that guy is sexist." Why is that so hard? Why do we have to pretend atheists as a group are the problem?
I'm not going to do it. I'm done with that nonsense. I have nothing to do with misogyny, and when the next person who is atheist is misogynist, I'm happy to say, "That guy is an ignorant piece of shit," but it has nothing to do with atheism.
Nobody cares what you're sick of.
DeleteUnless you're saying you're sick of Dawkins embarrassing the atheist community with his sexist/misogynist idiocy.
Is that what you're saying?
Because the fact is that a lot of the atheists have no problem with him. A lot of atheists were apparently too stupid to get why Rebecca Watson had every reason to say what she did. A lot of atheists seem to think that talking about how atheists just need to "bee cool around hot chicks" and that will mean everything is hunky dory and there will be no more problem.
We don't pretend that racism isn't a societal problem, and that it's just some individuals. No, people aren't that stupid. The intelligent ones recognize institutionalized racism, and the ways that unexamined examples of racist thinking still permeates vast swaths of society.
However, because sexism and misogyny are still so okey dokey with most people all over the world, most people would like to pretend that we can just call sexism and misogyny problems that only exist among a few individuals, and not have to be bothered with claims that get our boxers in a bunch. Well, you can continue living in denial for as long as you like. That doesn't change reality.
There is a problem. You apparently think you're so smart that if you cant' see it, it doesn't exist. Well I've got news for you: You aren't that smart, and it does exist. And people will keep calling it out no matter what you think.
... and I'll keep calling people like you, who make broad-sweeping generalizations, what you are: over-zealous fools who have a weak grasp of language.
DeleteThank you for commenting, I did read your whole comment. Please don't think I didn't.
You're up there making strawman arguments to avoid honest discussion, but *I'm* the one with a weak grasp of language. LOL
DeleteYou must, if you think language is the same as a rhetorical fallacy.
Delete"Would you like me to act sexist, so you actually know what it looks like?"
ReplyDeleteThat's aggressive.
I'm not attacking you personally.
You think that is aggressive? Are you familiar with the word "aggression" and it's English definition?
DeleteHere, I'll help you out. According to dictionary.com, the primary definition for aggression is:
Delete"the action of a state in violating by force the rights of another state, particularly its territorial rights; an unprovoked offensive, attack, invasion, or the like"
It's not a battle of wits. I'm just trying to explain something.
ReplyDeleteI got it. You followed a link and posted what you thought would be a useful comment. I'm not mad at you, and I'm not battling you, I'm just saying that you came here trying to tell me "I'm not helping," and I returned the favor.
DeleteI see some feminists (the lazy ones) obsess over language, but I don't see a very skillful use of it on their part. I see a lot of assumptions, broad-sweeping generalizations (like that by virtue of my penis, I can't know about misogyny...), and basically ignorance of who I am as a whole.
Did you ever stop and think, "What if he has a point?" I'm not asking you to even entertain the notion that I'm "right," merely that I am addressing a real problem that does exist, namely: atheism has no sexism problem, some atheists do. I don't blame feminism for how dumb certain feminists are, I know that feminism exceeds the intelligence, goals and tactics of it's worst members.
I would never say something as ignorant as "feminist has a misandry problem." It doesn't, though a few feminists do. There's a big difference there.
Good news genderqueers, women, and all people of non-privileged gender, sexism is not rampant in the atheist community because this dude says so!
ReplyDelete"If I see one more stupid post by an atheist about how sexism is rampant in the atheist community, I am out."
"… Shut the fuck up already."
So show some gentility all you atheist ladies and defer to the man, mmmkay?
From:
http://andythenerd.tumblr.com/post/18495576176/ironically-sexist-post-lacks-self-awareness
Are you a parrot? Andy also posted that link above.
Delete"I am a feminist"
ReplyDeleteNope.
I'm so glad you got to know me before deciding how I'm allowed to self-identify.
DeleteDon't worry, I don't hold it against feminism that you are so ignorant. I can see past people like you without much trouble.
"Then you don't know what "sexism" means.
ReplyDelete"Here, let me help"
Do you know what a condescending piece of shit looks like? Here, let me help. Look in a mirror.
Oooo... condescending... that's a mighty big word for someone who thinks "piece of shit" is a witty rebuttal.
DeleteAs a characterization, I'd say it's on par with "shut the fuck up" as a suggestion to people who are actual feminists, so... pot, kettle.
DeleteA real feminist hates a sexist, they don't blame a community for the actions of individuals. What you're talking about is bigotry, the lumping of individual action onto a group as a whole.
DeleteMaybe I'm confused but how are atheism and feminism related to ANYTHING involving butt heists, as the URL suggests?
ReplyDeleteIt's "a NY Thing..."
DeleteYou wouldn't understand :P
Sexism is rampant in the atheist community, and just because some religions practice it in even worse forms doesn't excuse us of the responsibility to clean our own house.
ReplyDeleteAlso, here's a bonus tip for the terminally unself-aware: If you use terms like "culture of victimhood" and accuse people of being "oversensitive know-nothings who just want to complain", then you are one of the people perpetuating and encouraging sexism, and the atheist community would be better off without you. If you intend to leave the atheist community, please do so with my blessing.
Rampant? Really? Why are you hanging out with so many sexist atheists? All the atheist blogs I go to are constantly talking about how there's a "sexism problem in atheism," which is why I wrote this post: because there is more complaints of sexism than sexism itself, and because atheism itself is not the problem, individuals who are sexist are.
DeleteAnd no, those terms are not perpetuating sexism. You obviously have no idea what the term "sexism" even means. See above in the comments for the dictionary definition.
There is no atheist "community", you fucking moron! Leave the atheist "community? There's nothiong to leave. One is either an atheist or or not, end of story. I don't recognize your right to excommunicate anyone.
DeleteNow go fuck yourself!
There is an atheist community at large, just by virtue of us all being here. We're in turn all sliced up into our little cliques, but as a whole we are a community. I didn't want to admit it for a long time (mostly because I want nothing to do with most atheists), but I was mistaken.
DeleteJust out of curiousity, Bret, have you ever BEEN to a large atheist event? Say an American Atheists conference, or Skepticon, etc.?
DeleteWhy would I ever want anything to do with you people?
DeleteI also spelled 'curiosity' wrong. Oops.
DeleteI promise not to criticize spelling (I screw up constantly). I only have a problem with errors when it's so bad I can't even read what an apoplectic commenter was trying to say.
DeleteLAWL.
DeleteSo you spend your whole day writing blogs about atheism and responding to comments on it, but you want 'nothing to do with us?' You just....talk about it all the time. But yeah, no, you totally don't want anything to do with us.
Perhaps, then, if you haven't attended a large atheist event, maybe you should either a) stop blogging about how much you know about the 'atheist community,' or b) actually attend an event and see for yourself what it's like. Juts a suggestion.
I don't mind responding to you, I just don't want to smell you guys.
DeleteAnd I wouldn't say it's my "whole day." Later I'm going to pick up some groceries and make dinner.
I also talk to Christians all the time, like when a post I write is about Christians. I don't secretly want to go to church.
I blog about what I know, which is what I see from other atheist bloggers. Maybe if you have so much trouble with these conventions, you should not go. I mean... please do, if you want, and feel free to tell misogynists to fuck off and all that, but don't go claiming "atheism has a sexism problem."
And besides, from all the feedback I'm getting, I'm being told I can't know about sexism, because I'm a man, so what would going to an event benefit some Y chromosome-crippled individual like myself?
"I'm being told I can't know about sexism, because I'm a man"
DeleteCitation please.
"You can't tell, because you are unaffected. (Just like how white people really can't say jack shit about racism.)"
Delete[Source]
I think it was said one more time in the comments somewhere, but I figured one was enough.
This is almost sad. Context:
Delete"There is actually a lot of sexism (as well as racism) in otherwise "progressive" circles like the atheist "community". You can't tell, because you are unaffected."
Do you really need me to explain to you how the idea that *your unexamined, privileged position is apparently preventing you from recognizing that that there's actually a lot of sexism in otherwise progressive circles* is significantly different to your claim that you were told that you "can't know about sexism" in general?
The quote you asked me to cite used the personal pronoun "I," in reference to me.
DeleteDo you really need me to explain to you why that makes the comment directly relevant?
Also, is there any blog I can see of yours? I've be reading the blogs of some of the people commenting here and I just like to keep tabs on people. I hope that doesn't sound all Nixon or anything... I just know when this post is old news, we'll get along.
DeleteI like knowing who the people on my blog are, but I allow anonymous comments because I want this to be a place anyone can add input (obviously I have no problem with people disagreeing with me here).
Hope that doesn't sound creepy... I just want to put a person behind your comments, since that makes you more real and tangible. Otherwise, I'm just chatting with... well... I have no clue. If you don't feel comfortable, of course, don't feel pressured.
You actually already commented on my blog today. http://rantasarahrex.blogspot.com/
DeleteI work in the movement. I'm an Event Specialist (I planned Richard Dawkins' last US book tour). I'm not going to quit the movement because I care about it and I want to see it succeed.
I attend conferences on a fairly regular basis. But it's pretty shitty for someone to say that I'm wrong for calling out sexism when I see it, considering I see it...um, all the time. No one is saying "EVERY SINGLE MAN IN THE ATHEIST MOVEMENT IS A SEXIST." We are saying there is a lot of sexism that happens, and a lot of sexist things happen and no one speaks up to stop them.
I get asked to bring older men coffee (and they add on a "young lady" or "little girl" to it, too). I ask people if they want to donate to my organization and they say witty things like, "No, but I'd like to bring you back to my hotel room tonight." (I'm not saying people can't hit on me/other women, I'm saying that is not the time/place). These aren't rare occurrences. They are common. I can't respond in the way that I would like to, because I have to represent my organization and remain professional, but I do let these men know that they are being inappropriate or that it is not okay. But lots of people sit by and watch and don't step in to say, "Hey, wow, that is completely not okay." That makes this a community problem. When otherwise good people sit by in apathy to real problems...that is a community problem.
But for you to tell me (or other "more important" bloggers, like Greta or PZ or anyone else) that we can't or shouldn't talk about it? Kind of bullshit.
(I realize that may not have been directed at me. Sorry, comments are a little difficult to follow in this format.)
DeleteWell yeah, I saw your post here and decided to visit your blog and comment (I don't hold it against anyone that they disagreed with me on my blog). I hope you aren't offended that I never heard of you before. I don't get around much... that's more my fault than yours (I'm sure your blog is very nice).
DeleteI'm not going to quit the movement because I care about it and I want to see it succeed.
Please don't, then. I'm just suggesting that if something bothers you, remove yourself from the situation. But, it's also good you stick around to try to make it better. It's harder, but it's better for the atheist community as a whole that you do.
We are saying there is a lot of sexism that happens, and a lot of sexist things happen and no one speaks up to stop them.
Actually, I see nothing but people speaking out against it. I see more complaints about sexism than actual sexism. It's not because I'm a guy, or that I don't see sexism when it's there, it's because I don't frequent the blogs of sexist people. I know, it's a novel approach.
Apparently that isn't an option open to you, but I hate seeing "atheist community" and "sexism" basically joined at the wrist like they were married in a half dozen blog post titles in my feed every week. I don't think it's making any progress towards actually changing anyone's mind to have all these posts about how "we have a problem," when the people who are the problem are not going to give a shit about these vague "community" remarks.
I get asked to bring older men coffee (and they add on a "young lady" or "little girl" to it, too).
Why not point out that old people are sexist? Why atheists?
I'm not saying people can't hit on me/other women, I'm saying that is not the time/place
Acknowledged. Guys are creeps about that stuff, no doubt. I wish I had the power to give you legal rights to kick someone in the balls who asks you out while soliciting donations, but I'm not the emperor... yet. Some day...
but I do let these men know that they are being inappropriate or that it is not okay
I'm glad. If only it would make a difference... but I have a feeling people like that don't change because of what some "chick" says. It's a shame, because they might not find themselves so lonely if they weren't such sleazeballs.
When otherwise good people sit by in apathy to real problems...that is a community problem.
I hope you call these "otherwise good" people out, as well. It's embarrassing that you have to take it upon yourself to act when there are other people just letting shit like that slide. They should be ashamed.
But for you to tell me (or other "more important" bloggers, like Greta or PZ or anyone else) that we can't or shouldn't talk about it? Kind of bullshit.
I did a post during all this commenting. I was hoping you might take a look at it (it's the top one of my blog at the moment) and perhaps share your insights.
Thanks for staying civil. It's not easy in the heat of the moment, but I'm glad you did.
First you admit above that you don't hardly go to atheist events and here you're saying you've only seen the debates hashed out in blogs, so why in the name of Sagan's dragon would you even *presume* to think you know whether or not there is sexism in the atheist community better than people who actually engage in and with the community in real life events? *boggle*
DeleteAre you saying I'm not part of the atheist community?
Deleteso only people who go to atheist conventions are part of the "atheist community?" Interesting because I am part of a big atheist community (a specific one that is for atheists who are former orthodox jews) and our entire "community" is online. I think online communities are just as much "communities" as are people who go to real life conventions or whatever. Think about it, conventions happen what, once a year? The real community is the online presence where people keep in touch when they aren't at the conferences.
DeleteBret: Did I say that? No. So rather than simply trying to avoid my question by asking another, how about you actually try and answer it.
DeleteI'm not sure how to dumb down the question any more for you.
You say you've never seen the sexism happening, but then you admit that you've never been anywhere you see see things like what Sarah describes has happened to her.
Therefore, how can you say that you know it is not happening when you've never even tried to make the necessary observations?
Is this really too difficult a question for you?
You do a great job of dumbing down everything you've said so far. If you want me to believe you're dumb, you succeeded.
DeleteMaybe you should read what I have written (which doesn't include the claim that sexism doesn't happen) before you come here sounding like a dipshit, asking irrelevant questions.
Why do you think atheism has a sexism problem when it clearly is isolated incidents perpetrated by individuals?
Good job at avoiding the question.
DeleteAnd why? People like yourself.
You asked a question about why I believe something I don't... how would you like me to answer that?
DeleteHow would you answer those who say you're a serial rapist?
Nice backtracking to save yourself from following through on what you say. Changing it to only blogs you read is some impressive goalpost shifting.
ReplyDeleteCool story, bro.
I can't believe I'm being fem-shamed by someone calling me "bro."
Delete*vomit*
Know your meme. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cool-story-bro
DeleteThe moment when you realize someone thinks you don't understand a meme...
Delete:P
Nobody fucking cares what you think, Bret. Now please fuck off.
ReplyDelete-- The world
Dear The world,
DeleteA shocking number of people apparently did care what I think (more than I thought was warranted for such a short post).
And I would fuck off, but I wouldn't want to be accused of sexually harassing off.
- Bret
I am glad we can be less sexist. What a good example of our community. Maybe next We can be less racist and less condescending.
ReplyDeleteAfter all being less of something should be the goal. Like less of a loser in baseball or less wealthy, or less educated.
So... you're saying you want us to be more sexist?
DeleteOkay, that wasn't fair...
DeleteThere's nothing wrong with opposing sexist atheists, but at some point people need to acknowledge that sexism is an individual act, even if individuals other than the one doing it (witnesses, friends, etc.) don't speak to the problem people.
I don't think you'll ever get atheists to be less condescending, though. That's a lost cause. We should stick to rooting out the sexist atheists.
Ok Atheists, let's get real here. 1. Dawkins represents his books, Foundation & those Atheists he works with, NOT THE Atheist Community or Atheism. 2. Where is the judge & jury that has adjudicated Dawkins for any sexism? How many here have been Atheist leaders over 4 decades with some credentials fighting our sexist patriarchal defacto theocracy? Nice to see internet activist Atheists here, but all the name calling & childish posts & reposts is the only EMBARRASSMENT to Atheism or our community I'd pay attention to today. 843-926-1750 Larry Carter Center fighting theocrats & fascists since 1964
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment Larry.
DeleteI know Dawkins is probably not sexist, but you can't convince people of that after Elevatorgate. You see... he didn't think it was sexism to ask a woman out in an elevator, I guess because it is. It's creepy and borderline intimidating (small, enclosed space and all), but sexist it was not. Dawkins isn't sexist for pointing that out, but you cannot convince certain people otherwise.
it is 4:11 EST here in Charleston, SC, the most sexist state in the nation with the fewest number of women elected to any public office of any state and per capita representation Larry_Carter_Center@yahoo.com 843-926-1750 if ya'll don't like patriarchy, run for office to replace the theocrat males & disgusting females like Ann Coulter or Phyliss Schafly or Sarah Palin or Laura Ingraham dominating tv & radio. Fight these creeps by calling into their live broadcasts or into their offices.... we will never gain respect as Atheists without confrontations with our enemies...
ReplyDeleteThey're too busy attacking fellow atheists.
DeleteWell, it's quiet... almost too quiet...
ReplyDeleteSo, I'm out to get groceries. If you leave a comment, I won't be able to get back to you for awhile.
And thanks to Andy, The Nerd, for all the visitors.
96 comments? WTF
ReplyDeleteIt was a hell of a leap day.
DeleteI'm reluctant to chime in now that the comments thread has hit novel length, but! I will anyway. "Sexism" is never an individual act, it's not even an act at all. "Sexual discrimination" is. Sexual discrimination can be directed toward both men and women at an individual level, whereas sexism is a societal problem - the problem being that the members of one sex, as a group, have less power (by virtue of their sex, not just by some highly improbable coincidence).
ReplyDeleteThe fact that it's common to describe a single person as "sexist" confuses the issue, in my mind - Dawkins, for example, is not a society-wide problem, he's a person. He probably doesn't even practice sexual discrimination in daily life. I would love to find a convenient term to represent the real problem a lot of feminists, like myself, have with what he said, but the problem with convenient terms is they end up sounding like character assassinations no matter how pure your intentions are.
Why not just say, "I disagree?" Do we have to label someone a "sexist" or a society/subculture as "sexist?" Doing so is just a tactic, not a solution, and it's a tactic not aimed at correcting any problem, but at demonizing and defaming someone or some group.
DeleteFeel free to chime in at any point. I always check my comments (regardless of how old the post or how many other comments were made).
I agree, we shouldn't label anyone "sexist." The difficulty lies in politely conveying the message that a certain behavior props up sexism without getting so academic and long-winded that you lose your audience. There is also such a thing as being too concerned about politeness. It's a fine line.
DeleteWell... can we at least label Rush Limbaugh as sexist?
DeleteI don't know, that might hurt his feelings.
Delete